21st century prewar living! ([info]idlerat) wrote,
@ 2005-03-22 18:05:00
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Entry tags:meta_major

informed consent, IRBs, and RPF
Damn you and your interestingness, LJ. I was trying to work.

It's suddenly occurred to me that the RPS "debate" is a little like the IRB debate. (Institutional Review Boards -- questions about whether all research of Internet materials is human subjects research; whether human subjects standards for the social "sciences" are really equivalent to those for e.g. medicine, and whether they clash with standards for the humanities).

In each case, there's a debate about whether you need to obtain consent before writing about people (or some text associated somehow with people) in a certain way.

And in some cases - for RPF and for some types of academic research - I'd actively say "no," as in, just the opposite- not only is it not necessary, it should not be done, for the sake of the "subject." It would be an imposition on the "subject," in some cases, to get "permission," just as it's harassment to tell an actor or a singer about RPS (unless they, like, ask.) So, like, if the people you plan to write about have no idea what an IRB could possibly be or any context for understanding what the kind of research you're doing *is*, and they will never be exposed to this research in any way shape or form, it's kind of insulting and rude (in addition to useless) to shove it down their throats in the name of what will be meaningless "consent." Just like it's insulting and rude to shove -- well, not just RPS, any kind of fic -- at actors.

And that's just for cases where you want to be sure to avoid "harm." There are other cases or methodological perspectives in which people simply aren't entitled to a say about whether you critique them in print or otherwise, e.g. art or politics. And this could go for celebrities, too, though it's a stretch to call RPF "critique."

I'm a little read/writ/thunk out at the moment, so I'll just give two refs:

This article that [info]transgeneric hooked me up with, "Representations or People?" and this discussion in [info]fanthropology (linking to my own comments because they directly deal with "the right to not know.")




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Similar *and* different
[info]ithiliana
2005-03-22 11:32 pm UTC (link)
A little like the debate in ethical or rhetorical terms? Because I can see that.

But of course, nothing like the IRB issue in some legal or bureaucratic terms. That is, universities in the US as far as I know have to have IRBs because of federal guidelines and money issues (can we say grants?). The complaints about disciplines formerly not subject to such review (humanities especially) are important and are being dealt with in a glacial fashion (the oral history issue). The existence of such interdisciplinary groups (Association of Internet Researchers) who provide the research and develop professional standards is something different as well (nothing like that exists in fandom). Such groups are providing some of the ammunition for people to use in the debates; no similar group does exist or can exist in fandom (and starting a centralized community and expecting people to read/review it and "learn" from it and accept its authority--well, nice thought, I thunk, but not bally likely I also thunk).

On the pragmatic level, at my university, a new requirement is listed on the internal grant form. If you want to apply to the single source for some serious *internal* funding (meaning more than the $500 travel grant), money to support reassigned time (we teach four classes a term), you have no choice. You must submit your project to IRB approval even if you know, as I did, that no standard literary project, which is what mine is, dealing with published texts, will be supervised. Nobody is interested in debating the ethics. It's policy and ease of moving stuff through the pipeline.

And so I did. Provided some nice chuckles for my IRB dept. and university dudes.

So it's interesting, I think, to note the difference in terms of fandom and academia. That is, one can debate ethics all one wants, but the idea that one is debating one's own ethical choices or whatever is moderated by the employment situation, university policies, and federal guidelines. And a lot of this comes down to who is supplying the money and what requirements they set.

Since fandom is philosophically and mostly not involved with funding, the difference is immediate.

I knew my project didn't need IRB approval, but officially only the IRB can declare a project exempt from IRB oversight. And I wanted the grant. So I shrugged, applied, and sent it all on.

Not sure if this contributes anything to it all--admit I looked at hh's brilliant post, thought it was like her previous brilliant posts, admired the lack of wank at the community discussion, and have absolutely no interest in engaging in this debate over and over and over (my friends say the RPS thing comes up every summer like clockwork since they've been in LJ which I find hilarious!). And I think you helped me realize what's a part of my response--it's not just fan weariness, it's maybe a sense, prejudiced and stupid as it may be on my part, that what is going on in the fan debate over RPS/FPS doesn't particularly mean anything important in any way *to me* that I can perceive it *at this point* (am willing to be convinced, but I think it's my "fandom is just a goddamned hobby" philosophy--I don't see it as a way of life, I don't see myself as bound by some fictional or mythical 'community' standards, or even that 'fandom' is a single community, etc.).

The intranet lawyers and those who claim to talk about the legality of it all in fandom aren't professionals for the most part, as far as I can tell. No court decision has been made. Nobody has authority to do anything, and as I realized a while ago, writing away at my RPS, nobody either ranting or presenting serious ethical concerns about RPS is going to stop me because I don't agree with them, and haven't seen a single solitary argument that even comes close to making me think even slightly about reconsidering.

So what's the point of even spending time on the debate? I admit, I now am posting about it, but at this point, it's 5:29 p.m., I'm very tired and waiting for housemate to finish big official report on last big grant so we can go home, and I'm wandering around and saw your post, poor you.

Other than that (and it's mostly 'cause I like you), I'd rather spend my time writing some smut!

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Re: Similar *and* different
[info]idlerat
2005-03-24 03:46 pm UTC (link)
Um, yeah, I didn't mean a comparison in terms of institutional features.

But I think the points you raise actually point to a sort of ... psychological similarity? Like, the fact that, in both situations, you've got people taking it very seriously and arguing about ethics, and most people just going on instinct, finding the "ethics" overblown and irrelevant, and doing what they need to to get by. I think that the routine fobbing off of purely formal gestures on IRBs actually makes it seem more like fandom. All the bureaucratic and yes, money-related things are there, but people are sort of operating outside them. They don't care what the NSF or whatever thinks of what they do anymore than a ficcer cares what Viggo's agent thinks. And then there are others who care a lot.

And meanwhile the debate is out there, something is in flux, something hasn't been settled. Interesting times.

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Re: Similar *and* different
[info]ithiliana
2005-03-25 12:40 am UTC (link)
Psychological similarity, yes, though as Entwife pointed out when I was telling her about this whole issue, one point at which similarity breaks down is professionalization/authority. That is, if there is no power given a group to enforce the standards (power given by the government), then no wonder there's on-going and circular disagreement. THere can be disagreement about certification, licenses, professional standards, etc. and lots of ducking of them, but there is no central authority in fandom to even begin to grant anything, though the self-proclaiming tendency of some fans/groups of fans to claim that authority does, of course, lead to more conflict.

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Re: Similar *and* different
[info]idlerat
2005-03-25 12:48 am UTC (link)
The thing is, it's not surprising that they're *not* similar- I mean I wasn't reaching for a comprehensive theory of how IRBs and RPF are the *same damn thing* - what I think is astonishing is that they are similar at all, and I think it points to something about our historical moment that is somewhat weird.

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Re: Similar *and* different
[info]ithiliana
2005-03-25 01:31 am UTC (link)
*aha* *whaps head* *D'Oh!* *picture big lightbulb going on over head as comprehension finally dawns in big splashy comic book sized font*

OK. Gotcha. And yeah, word.

Er, did I mention I was sort of tired, conference and jet lagged, and writing another paper, so *teh lack of reading comprehension* can perhaps be excused?

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Re: Similar *and* different
[info]idlerat
2005-03-25 04:21 am UTC (link)
No, I don't think it was you- I was totally not clear at all, I knew I wasn't being clear- it was just this weird homology that suddenly occured to me. :)

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Re: Similar *and* different
[info]partly_bouncy
2005-04-05 03:59 pm UTC (link)
mmm. And most people who get C&Ds don't go to court or further challenge them in an attempt to set precedent... I know that when we got a C&D at my site, we basically bent over backwards as much as we could to do what they wanted short terms. The other C&Ds I've heard of, same deal... no follow through with litigation. The only comparitive thing I can think of legally dealing with derivative fiction is The Wind Done Gone or whatever it was.



So it's interesting, I think, to note the difference in terms of fandom and academia. That is, one can debate ethics all one wants, but the idea that one is debating one's own ethical choices or whatever is moderated by the employment situation, university policies, and federal guidelines. And a lot of this comes down to who is supplying the money and what requirements they set.
Since fandom is philosophically and mostly not involved with funding, the difference is immediate.


See, I started thinking about this as I started working on stuff... If I do a poll on LJ and I compile the stats on LJ or I find another poll that some one else conducted on LJ, do I need to do that? :/ I don't necessarily intend to publish and I'm mostly doing it for my own quasi-academic interests and we've never touched on this in my classes... And as such, I don't really know what is going on or how that is viewed as I've never had cause to think of it before.

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[info]dailyplanet
2005-03-22 11:43 pm UTC (link)
LOL!!!!

I can't imagine the ridiculousness of, like, writing a letter to Orlando Bloom:

"Dear sir, I'm a girl who writes porn about you -- well, really more like, I write porn about a person who LOOKS like you & has your NAME, but in this fictional story, you're gay and stuff. I just need to inform you for ethical reasons."

That's funny enough.

But it's even better if the letter goes:

"Dear sir, I'm an academic doing official-type research about girls who write porn about you -- well really more like, girls who write porn about a person who LOOKS like you & has your NAME, but in their fictional stories you're gay and stuff. I just need to get your permission for ethical reasons...."

Damn you and your interestingness Idlerat, I'm going to get TEH BUSTED for laughing up in heeyah!!!

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[info]idlerat
2005-03-23 12:56 am UTC (link)
:)

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[info]vulgarweed
2005-03-23 01:26 am UTC (link)
That's a really, really interesting discussion - thank you!

And that's just for cases where you want to be sure to avoid "harm." There are other cases or methodological perspectives in which people simply aren't entitled to a say about whether you critique them in print or otherwise, e.g. art or politics. And this could go for celebrities, too, though it's a stretch to call RPF "critique."

Since for some reason my big embarrassing addiction of the moment is political RPS, it hadn't really occurred to me until now (or if so, only dimly) that I have more of a leg to stand on with regard to "satire" than, say, musician-slashers. I will emphatically NOT be writing any letters thanking or berating Congresscritter X for some position (heh!) on something or other that include any lines related to permission to write teh pr0n, however. >__

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[info]partly_bouncy
2005-04-05 04:01 pm UTC (link)
Where would RPF be crossing legal lines? It just seems like there is more precedent of legal protection than the are for tradfic based on media properties where intellectual property issues come in to play.

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